Jennifer Ellis, JD, LLC

Attorney. Consultant. Teacher.

Did you tell me you are recording me? No? Oh, well enjoy that prison cell.

Of late I have experienced several instances when someone on a phone call has mentioned in an off-hand way, long after the start of the call, that I was being recorded.  I wasn’t particularly upset in either case but I was a bit taken aback to realize the people calling me hadn’t even offered a by-your-leave. It never once occurred to me that someone was recording what I was saying.

As it happens, I am in Pennsylvania. The people with whom I was speaking either knew I was in Pennsylvania or were in Pennsylvania too. And in Pennsylvania, those people committed a very serious criminal offense; they clearly violated the wiretap laws.

Dual Party Consent

In many states, as long as one party is aware of the recording, everything is copacetic. But it is very important to be aware that quite a few states require dual party consent. Dual party consent means just what it sounds like, both parties have to know about and consent to the recording.  Consent is assumed if an announcement is made at the start of the call and both parties stay on the call. That is how so many customer service departments are able to record the calls, and that is exactly why the announcement is made. Even if you aren’t in a dual party consent state, it just seems polite to me to tell someone, “hey, I’m recording you;” unless, of course, there is a reason not to do so.

Here in Pennsylvania, it doesn’t really matter if there is a reason you don’t want to tell me you are recording me. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking if you aren’t an officer of the law with a warrant (or have some other legal right to record) you had best not hit that record button; unless you yourself want to be recorded, from jail. No dual party consent required there, because you are supposed to know you have no expectation of privacy.

The Law

There are federal wiretap laws as well as state wiretap laws. The federal laws are the minimum, and they aren’t all that lenient either, though they do not require dual consent. Allow me to explain, for those who aren’t attorneys, that a very basic way to look at the law is that states can give more rights than the federal government; but may not take more rights away.  What this means is that if the federal government has said X is the minimum, then the state may not say, well tough, Z. But the state may certainly say, X isn’t enough for us, we also want to give you A. That is why sometimes a state passes a law that restricts something, someone sues and it ends up in federal court as a federal constitutional issue.

My State Rules, Right?

You might ask, well if I am calling from a state that is not dual consent then I am covered by my state’s law, right? The answer would be maybe, maybe not. If the person who didn’t give consent successfully sues in a dual consent state, then chances are pretty good the dual consent law will apply. And if you were recorded against your will on a conference call that had 15 different people in 15 different states, which state would you sue in? So my question is; do you feel lucky?

The Statute

The Pennsylvania law in question is Chapter 57 – Wiretapping and Electronic Surveillance, Subchapter B. (Scroll down.)

Dispositive here is 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5703(1) which deals with interception (i.e. recording) of a communication.

§ 5703. Interception, disclosure or use of wire, electronic or oral communications. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if he:
(1) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept any wire, electronic or oral communication;

Note wiretap violations are a felonious offense.

How do I know that interception means recording? The definition tells me. Again citing the statute:

“Intercept.” Aural or other acquisition of the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication through the use of any electronic, mechanical or other device.

Non-electronic oral communications may or may not have an expectation of privacy. So if you plan to record someone when you are face-to-face, you best make sure he doesn’t have an expectation of privacy before you hit that record button, or you might find yourself in quite a bit of trouble. Again citing the statute, 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5702.

“Oral communication.” Any oral communication uttered by a person possessing an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation. The term does not include any electronic communication.

Along with the criminal penalties, which can be pretty severe, the statute provides for civil penalties. Those penalties include actual damages, $100 per day, or $1000, whichever is greater, along with punitive damages, litigation costs and attorney’s fees. 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 5725.

Conclusion

So, before you record that call, or that conversation, it might be wise to stop and think. Something as simple as saying, “I am recording this conversation,” could be the difference between a world of hurt, and just another day at the office.

Comments

198 responses to “Did you tell me you are recording me? No? Oh, well enjoy that prison cell.”

  1. Bob

    Me and my best friend were hanging out and I was recording us and things were said on the video. That now she is pressing charges on me for harassment 6 months later she must not remember that I was recording us 6 months ago, and what was said on the video can prove that she is lying about everything that she is accusing me of, can I use that in court for my defense. I live in PA

    1. I cannot tell you what a court will or will not allow you to use. What I can suggest is that you give the recording to your attorney (either a private attorney or a public defender) and tell them the circumstances of the recording. The attorney can help you decide whether it is wise to use the recording and whether to try to get it into court.

  2. GG

    My wife and I were having a private conversation in our bedroom, and I found out later that my roommates gf had taken a video of us having our conversation. You can’t see us in the video, because she was behind a door but you can hear us. My bedroom would count as an expectation of privacy right? Obviously neither my wife or I consented to being recorded. What should I do??

    1. That is an odd thing for your roommate’s girlfriend to do.

      I would start by talking to your roommate and asking him to please tell her not to record your private conversations. You might mention to him that it is illegal for her to record a conversation in which she is not a participant without permission of one of the participants in every state, and illegal in some states to record a conversation without the consent of every participant. For example, here in Pennsylvania, she would have needed permission from both of you. You can make it clear it is a very serious crime, a felony, and can result in a long time in jail. I would tell him that you want to talk to her and make sure that she ceases this improper and illegal conduct.

      I think in a situation like this it is best to begin by addressing this on a personal level. Let your roommate know you do not appreciate the invasion of your privacy. Especially in your bedroom. If you had actually been unclothed or doing anything intimate, she would have committed an even more serious crime.

      If she insists on continuing, or she posts the conversation online or something, you will have to decide if you want to involve the police at that point.

  3. JC

    Why are barely audible beeps which can not be heard until after a conversation has already begun, deemed legal notice of recording? Dont you need PRIOR notice of being recorded, before it begins? I have had conversations where I can not hear the beeps until half way through, and even then, with today’s technology, you can’t be 100% sure what they are. I also have had credit card companies with whom I have no relationship call me, asking me questions about someone else who does not even live with me. And they recorded me, without true permission or notice, only a barely, if at all, audible beep that begins well after the call does. They called me! I found this outrageous. Is it legal?

    Other question: What is the statute of limitations on the “wiretap” law, and is there a discovery element? (I.e. it does not begin to run until after the “crime” is discovered, or is extended by later discovery).

    1. I do not believe a beep is sufficient. The warning and approval need to occur before the recording begins, or to stop immediately upon revocation of consent. These companies may well be violating the law. However, there will be disputes about what law they are required to follow. My view is that you must follow the law of the most restrictive state you are calling. It is also possible that these companies are not legitimate companies at all. As you are no doubt aware we have developed a severe problem with fraud.
      The statute of limitations in Pennsylvania is, I believe, 2 years. It begins from the time of the recording. It is not extended by discovery, as far as I am aware.

      1. JC

        Thank you so much for responding! In my google search it just seems everyone was saying beeps are adequate legal notice. I don’t feel they are, especially today. That someone I’ve never spoken to before can just call and start recording me without notice or permission makes my blood boil. So, I hope we are both in the right. The “I live in PA” comment was made before I saw your response. Thanks again!

        1. You are welcome. I would not want to argue in court that a beep is enough to tell someone that they are being recorded. I think the law requires an affirmative statement. At least here in Pennsylvania. Then you can decide whether to stay on the phone or not.

    2. JC

      P.S…. I live in PA. Also, I ASK is there a beeping going on from your end, what is it? (Often I can barely hear it, and today almost all elecronics and connections have noise, often beeps). If told it’s a recording, tell them I do not give permission for that and hang up.

  4. Melissa smith

    Can a cps or police officer tape u without u being about it when they are justed talking to u for the first time

    1. The police often have cameras these days and can be openly taping you. CPS generally will not record you secretly, but they can with appropriate permission. If you are in a public place, anyone can record you because you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. In either case, it doesn’t matter. Anything you say to either the police or CPS they can repeat it and it can be used against you.

  5. Jeff Irons

    Question in California dual state. You have permission of all parties to record and then during the proceeding conversation, one party changes their mind at that point. Obviously recording stops then but is the previously recorded stuff before the recission of the consent still OK. Summary. Person says OK to record. 5 minutes into it they change their mind. What is the legality of those first 5 min?

    1. The portion that was recorded with permission remains legal.

  6. Teresa

    Ok here’s my question our daughter recorded us in our own home without us knowing I was angry and upset said somethings I should not have said she then gave it to our other daughter who then turned it into children and youth services in Pa and they used it against me and took my grandson from us can we do anything about it no the grandson was not hit it was things just said out of anger and they said I verbally abused the child he was only a year old then

    1. There is nothing you can do that will take away the decision by children and youth if that is what you are asking. Of course, you can hire a lawyer and appeal the decision, but the method of recording won’t make a difference. That recording will remain evidence against you.

      When someone records you illegally, the police or children and youth are allowed to use that recording, as long as the recording was not done because of a request by the police. The same is true for all sorts of evidence. For example, if someone broke into your house and saw something illegal in your house, and gave that item to the police, the police could use that evidence against you. As could children and youth.

      You can complain to the police about the recording, sure. The police may or may not take action.

  7. MW

    This is a very helpful blog and your responsiveness over the years is phenomenal.

    My question is as follows. I live in NY which is a one party consent state. My soon to be ex was in PA when they made clandestine recordings of our phone conversations. Both locations were in private homes (I was in mine in NY). I would argue that the person’s interrogation was leading and manipulative in an effort to try to get me to admit to false criminal behavior (which I didn’t do hence would not admit to doing).

    Is it legitimate to pursue charges against them in PA while I still live in NY? If so, how does one go about doing so? In general, what would make a prosecutor sufficiently interested to press charges?

    Thank you

    1. Thank you for your kind words. Soon to be ex broke the law when they recorded you, yes. However, whether the police will be interested in doing anything about it I cannot say. I really don’t know how to make them interested.

      The thing here is that since STBE is in PA, where the law is all party, and you are in NY, which is one party, the law is meant to protect the person in PA. You would probably get more interest if you were the PA resident.

      If you report in NY, obviously, they won’t do anything, since no law was broken there. I would contact the PA police in this person’s county and find out if they are interested in doing anything about it. Often the police require a physical visit from a complainant, so you may need to go to PA to file a report.

      I am glad you didn’t admit to anything. If you have a lawyer, I think the best place to start is with them. The family court may not appreciate her efforts. Needless to say, but I will write it anyway, continue to be careful in your communications with this person.

      1. MW

        Thank you for your response.

        I see what you mean that the PA law is focused on covering victims in PA rather than in other states. That makes sense.

        Thank you also for describing the mechanics of how to file a complaint.

  8. Nancy Gehrke

    Hi my soon to be ex husband is taking video recordings of me exercising and on calls with work. Does this law apply to video and who do I report this to? We live in Pennsylvania.

    1. Goodness. This sounds more like stalking to me than anything else. If you have a lawyer, I would check with them. But if not, my suggestion is to go to the police and report this behavior, and potentially look into filing a protection from abuse order. Recording you in public does not implicate this law, but, if he is somehow recording your actual phone calls (that is he is not recording your call from outside the call, but somehow recording your calls) that implicates the law.

  9. Not a happy home owner

    My question is if I have a contractor doing work at my residence and we have a conversation about the work he is doing at my house while we are inside my house can I audio record our conversation without telling him our conversation is being recorded?

    1. Probably so. Generally, you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in someone else’s house, except in places where you might be changing or using the bathroom. But, I cannot make you any promises that this is how things will come down if you run into issues.

  10. Mr. G.

    I am a public school teacher in Pennsylvania. My students’ ages range from 16 to 18 years old. What is the law regarding students recording me on their cell phone without my consent and then posting the recording to social media on the Internet, such as Snapchat? If this happens, what, if anything, can I do about it? Thanks!

    1. In Pennsylvania, the law turns on whether you have an expectation of privacy. When you are in public, you do not generally have an expectation of privacy, and as such, can be recorded. Whether you have an expectation of privacy while teaching in a classroom, I cannot say. However, I also think this is more of a rule issue than a legal issue. I suggest you speak with your bosses about whether students are allowed to record, if there is a policy on it, so on and so forth. You certainly can consult with a lawyer who handles such matters and get an opinion from them as well. It would require an analysis of whether you have an expectation of privacy while teaching in a classroom. My guess would be no.

  11. chad

    If you work in a 1 party state.. Does the person have to tell you they are recording a converation if asked

    1. What matters is where everyone is located. If you are in a one party state but talking to someone in an all party state, you need to follow the all party state laws. The law doesn’t follow you. So even though PA is an all party state, if I am in a one party state during the conversation, the one party state’s law applies.

  12. Ronald Shelton

    I was recorded while working, and had no idea of the recording until it was sent to my employer who used the recording to reprimand me. This happened in DC. At no point in time did they state they was recording me.

    1. DC is a one party consent state. This means that if someone is a party to a conversation, they are allowed to record it. In addition, if you do not have an expectation of privacy, anyone may record you. Whether you have an expectation of privacy in a place of work, I cannot say. But if the other person was part of the conversation or gave consent, it was legal to record you in DC. If they were not, it depends whether you had an expectation of privacy. You would need to ask a DC lawyer for an answer to that question. You will find a statement of the law here http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/district-columbia-recording-law

  13. anonymous

    I have expectation of privacy since this took place in my bedroom with the door 3/4 closed on private property (house) . This is the 2nd recorder I have found in the last 6 months. So, after reading your description of reasonable amount of privacy in a private home as well as The Wiretap Act of 1968 (18 U.S.C. § 2511.) , the crime is very obvious if my interpretation is correct.

    1. Ok, well if that is your interpretation you have two choices. Go to the police or don’t go to the police. Only you can decide what to do. You said you didn’t want to go to the police. I really cannot tell you what to do one way or the other. You could look and see if you qualify for legal aid. They provide free advice.

  14. Anonymous

    I have a question for you Jennifer. I rent a room in a private home. The owner went out of town for a few days and I noticed a box about 2′ from my bedroom door. I didn’t think anything of it at first, but later on during the day I had that “gut” feeling that something was up. I looked in the box and there was a digital voice recorder that could record for 400 hours. I took pictures of it and of the box from the other end of the hall. I live in a one party state. I cannot contact the police as this person is very vindictive. Thank you.

    1. I am not clear on what your question is. If you cannot call the police I am not sure what difference it makes if the conduct is illegal. Regardless, the question is whether you have an expectation of privacy in the main part of the house. I cannot answer that question. Perhaps the best thing is just to move out as soon as you can?

  15. Mike

    We had a big meeting at our church with all members of the church invited in somebody recorded it do you know what the state of Pennsylvania says about that. It was just for their own knowledge not to put it on the Internet or go public with it.

    Thanks

    1. I would have to guess that there is no expectation of privacy in a church meeting, depending on various factors. I really cannot say for sure though. If the person did not hide the recorder and everyone knew it was there and no one objected, it is unlikely to be a problem. If you don’t want the person recording I would ask someone in charge to say something next time. It always comes down to whether the people had a reasonable expectation of privacy.

  16. Adriana

    My ex husband pulled our son out of school on my court odered date- When I went to pick my son up from his house I was furious and I let him know- After the encounter as I was driving away he told me he was recording me.. this all happened in his property- Is this legal in the state of PA?

    1. The question comes down to whether you had a reasonable expectation of privacy in or right outside of your husband’s home. The likely answer is no, but I cannot guarantee that. We do not generally have an expectation of privacy on other people’s land or in the main parts of their house. (We would have one in the bathroom, for example.) Obviously, going forward, you can assume that he will record you.

  17. Natalie

    It has just been brought to my attention by my 14 year old son that my ex husband recorded conversations with my during our divorce process without me knowing. He, my son gave me these micro cassettes and I am waiting for a recorder to be delivered so I can listen to them, had to order one from eBay because no store carries these anymore, anyway I live in Pitts, Pa, was just wanting your opinion, can I file charges against him for this. Since I have not heard the tapes yet I am only assuming it is about our divorce since my son told me one of them was because he listened to one of them. This process was back in 2010 when we got divorced. Is there a statute of limitations for this kind of thing?

    1. Yes, there is a statute of limitations. You can certainly go to the police and let them know what happened and go from there.

  18. Anz

    My daughter and her friend were recorded on my daughters roommates computer without their knowledge in her dorm room . The roommate took the video/audio to the student affairs office to try and pin some stuff on my daughter. It backfired and now student affairs is suggesting that my daughter press charges. This happened in Indiana. Is this considered a felony or a misdemeanor?

    1. I don’t know. It would depend on the jurisdiction and the statute, as well as the specific charges.

  19. Wizard

    What about businesses that don’t make a verbal announcement that their calls are recorded, but have an audible beep every 15 seconds? This seems also to be the standard used by public safety agencies in Pennsylvania.

    1. Some types of organizations are exempt. When you call 911, for example, they don’t have to state there is a recording.

  20. Remi

    A parent in our booster club has claimed that she has “issues” with another parent in the same booster club. At the last meeting, she secretly recorded the meeting with about 12 people present. We didn’t learn of the recording until weeks later. She claims it falls under the Sunshine Law in PA and is permitted to secretly record the meeting. I disagree as our booster club is not a government agency nor are we a “subgroup” of the local school board. In addition, I am not sure if we have an expectation of privacy or not in such a setting. I know PA is a “two-party” consent state but the way I understand the law, it depends on whether or not there was an expectation of privacy in the conversation you were having.

    1. The question in an all-party consent state is whether you had an expectation of privacy. I cannot tell you if you had an expectation of privacy in your meeting. But that is the standard. If you did not have an expectation of privacy, then the parent is fine recording the meeting.

  21. Alesha

    My husband and I are getting a divorce. We live in PA. He will get me all upset and mad at him by saying hurtful things to me. I will obviously retaliate by saying hurtful, mean things to him as well.
    He just informed me last night that he started recording me in our home we share together. I proceeded to tell him that he cannot record our conversations or anything I say to him in the privacy of our own home.
    He laughs and tells me that he can and will use whatever I say to him in court. I was completely unaware of him recording me. He’s showing different people he works with the videos and is trying to make me look like a horrible person.
    The reason for our divorce is due to him being unfaithful and a narcissist. Is it a crime in PA that he has been doing this without my knowledge and how do I go about getting those videos removed from his phone?
    Thank you!

    1. I am sorry to hear you are in a bad situation. You will need to retain a lawyer for your divorce, and the lawyer can help you with the recordings.

  22. Brittney

    Currently found out that my step daughters mom has been recording us at our drop off and pick ups. We are in a child custody battle so she is just trying to get us.. is this legal?? Or if i ask her if i am begin recorded and she dosent answer me or lies and says no, or even says yes, if i say i dont allow her to record me, can she still use that recording??

    1. It depends on whether you have a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time of the recording. Generally, the law is, if you are in public, she can record you, but if you are not, then she cannot. I suggest that you speak to your lawyer about it.

    2. It depends on whether you have a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time of the recording. Generally, the law is, if you are in public, she can record you, but if you are not, then she cannot. I suggest that you speak to your lawyer about it.

  23. Heidi

    While exchanging our minor children in a public parking lot, my ex husband force ably opened my drivers side door and stood in it not moving or allowing me to close it when I asked him to get out. I picked up my IPhone and told him I was going to record him. I began recording him for over two minutes while telling him to leave, he didn’t listen. I moved the phone around showing the situation where we were parked, I talked into the phone saying his name and what he was doing, he actually said “hi” to the camera phone and stated for me to watch the recording and how I was a terrible mom. ( he spent this time accusing me of calling him a liar in front of our kids over and over) at the end of this situation he finally got out of the way and I was able to shut my door but he still leaned in the window while I tried to put the window up. I was recording him the whole time he was doing all of this. I stated to him I was recording “for everyone to watch what he was doing” since it was threating and aggressive.He then dove into my car through the window and said “ya everyone watch this”and grabbed the phone out of my hand, ran to his car where our kids were and tried to delete the video. He discarded my phone on the ground outside his car and took off in his car, the whole while our two children and my stepson watched this craziness from the back seats. I was able to recover the video from the trash folder and made a police report on the incident and a PFA. My question is I didn’t get express consent on the recording, I told him I was going to record him before recording. It is just mostly implied consent by his actions (acknowledged the recording occurring, talking to the camera, telling me to watch the recording). Could I use this video to show his aggression? Is it reasonable to assume he knew explicitly he was being recorded? Even though express consent isn’t there?no one could tell me when I filed the PFA what to do with it. We live in PA.

    1. I am very sorry to hear about what you are going through. I really cannot answer your question, because I am not your lawyer and you are asking for a legal conclusion. It certainly sounds like you made it clear he was being recorded and I would be surprised if you got in trouble given what you have told me. It also sounds like he had no expectation of privacy. But There is no way I can give you a 100% yes you are ok. I suggest you seek out assistance from legal aid to get an answer to your question.

  24. Splochi

    Can a counselee record a counseling session without the permission of the therapist?

    1. I wouldn’t think so, not in a two party/all party consent jurisdiction.

  25. James

    My friend put a recording devise in his ex girl friends house. I’m not sure if he actually recorded anything. She found it and reported it to the police. He said he was doing it for his protection. So she couldn’t blame anything on him that didn’t happen. They have a kid together. We live in PA. What do you think he is facing?

  26. James

    I have a friend who put a recording devise in his ex girlfriends house. I’m not sure if he actually recorded anything. She found it and reported it to the police. How much trouble you think he is in? I live in PA.

    1. I think your friend can be in quite a lot of trouble.

      1. James

        Yea that’s what I was afraid of. I was reading up on a lot of stuff. He has a lawyer and everything. I donno tho. Do you think he faces jail?

        1. I really have no way of knowing. It depends on the situation, including your friend’s past and whether he has ever gotten in trouble before. Also, exactly what he is charged with, whether his lawyer can work out a plea, and so on. It is good he has a lawyer.

          1. James

            3 counts of F3 18 5703 and a previous Misdemeanor that was expunged.

          2. I wish I could tell you what will happen, but the reality is there is no way for me to know.

          3. James

            Okay. Thank you for your time.

      2. James

        Sorry for the repost. Didn’t think it posted.

  27. Alisa

    My husband put a Nest video/audio recording device in our home in Pa to provoke me to sat or do something incriminating in order to obtain custody of our children. He said he is using it as surveilance equipment to protect his work office space in our home but that is not true. I told him that I do not condone him video and audio taping me or our children in our home. Can he use any of the information in court if he captured anything I said or did while being provoked. I am not sure that I did anything that can be used or not.

    1. I am sorry to hear this. Frankly, I cannot say. You would end up with his lawyer and your lawyer disputing the legality and admissibility. A judge would have to make a decision.

  28. johnny west

    Regardless of the legalities, recording someone who is a friend or business associate without their prior knowledge or consent is just downright creepy, unethical and morally WRONG. I’ve had a friend recently secretly record me in a discussion with associates at a gallery having a discussion about various aspects of an upcoming show. What possible use would the recording have later? We resolved our issues and came to an agreement. The recording served no purpose other than his own prurient, messed-up motives. And guess what? When he told me, it essentially ended the friendship. Why be friends with someone you can’t trust?

    1. Amen, Johnny. I agree with you. If there is criminal conduct, get the police involved and they can get a warrant. Barring extreme circumstances, I don’t like to see recording of people.

  29. Kiki

    Great information. We have a situation where my husband’s ex sent us an email saying he will have a rough time if he takes her to court for visitation because she has recordings from the last 4 years. She is in Florida which is a two party consent state. He was out of the country. Can she get in trouble for this? How can we prove it? (Besides the email of course)

    1. She can get in trouble in a two party consent state. Unfortunately, it is a matter of who the police and the prosecutor believes. As far as using the recordings against him in civil court, that depends on state law. In PA, the recordings could not be admitted. In other states, they may be. I cannot say.

  30. James

    Jennifer and Declan McManus, thank you so much for the quick reply’s. I have a lawyer but I haven’t gotten to talk to him much as I would like but will push him a little harder now. As to where the recording took place, it was in my vehicle in the state of Pennsylvania. I kind of admitted in the recording that I verbally abused the accuser and maybe physically abused him, but the way he asked me questions without being specific , they are now saying and using the recording as that I sexually abused him. I think the police coerced or led the accuser to ask general questions and not be specific so they can bend the story in their favor of sexual assault. Either way I’m in for a battle with this and hope that I get the audio tossed, or hope that my lawyer is as good as they say he is for me.

    Thank you again and have a beautiful day!

    1. You are most welcome. The thing about warrants and recordings is that your lawyer needs to decide how to approach the issue. We are not in a place where we can tell you, yes it is ok or no it is not. This is because the lawyer might have a basis to attack the warrant or something else about the recording. Only /she would know based on the specific facts of the case. When it comes down to law, it always is about the specific facts and how the law applies to them.

      1. Declan McManus

        Ahh… Yes – that TOO!
        In the event a warrant WAS secured – definitely a place for close scrutiny – as Jennifer notes.
        But – don’t be anything other than a fine-tooth comb for EVERY thing that is CLAIMED “about” the various details. As those can very often be THE PLACE where they were sloppy, lazy, or just plain fascist about their own hubris – and how they VIEW YOU.
        Condescending, paternalistic, and abusive.
        The DATES on things, the nature and SCOPE of an investigative goal or angle they had…
        The proverbial i dotting and t crossing – is where you may find your rescue.
        And – I can never stress ENOUGH – the need to FORCE a full and open communications flow with any attorney that you hand your life over to. And sometimes that does require the client to behave in an actually FORCEFUL WAY.
        Their nature is – more often than not – to brush you off with platitudes of the “don’t worry – I got it covered – you just live your life while I handle this…” kind.
        You must MAKE THEM answer your questions – and the only way those have any value is for YOU to commit to the learning that is necessary for your questions to be relevant and applicable to your situation.
        Unfortunately – you have to view your own attorney in a nearly as adversarial role, as you do the police and prosecutors who are your literal adversary. Until you have a baseline of frankness and fullness established with that attorney.
        Trust them with letting it all up to them alone, absent your input and consent to each decision – at your own peril.

  31. James

    I’m in Pennsylvania. I had a police obtained (sting) recording used on me from a person (alleged victim). I asked the person that was recording me if they were recording our conversation and they said no. Is that recording still legal to use after the fact that they said no they weren’t recording me?

    1. A warrant essentially bypasses the law. Your lawyer will be the one to decide how best to deal with the recording, but generally, such recordings are legal.

      1. Declan McManus

        Seconding Jennifer here…
        That you used “sting” specifically – it pretty much declares that any recording was arranged to take place by police – and your, I’d assume “former” friend – was just another pawn in their game. As it seems they made of you too.
        But – I would do as Jennifer said – rely upon – and LEAN HARD on that lawyer…
        As there are several technical aspects – any one of which could be your rescue from the grip of law enforcement.
        But you’ll have to – yourself, individually – be as vigilant about your own lawyer – as you imagine they are being with police in your behalf.
        They may just move you along the sausage line – into a plea – without the kind of investigative effort that could free you entirely.
        And when they start saying to you “the gig’s up – they’ve got you cold…” – do not let it rest until you have some questions answered – like…
        Was the recording person acting – recording – at the direction of police… Or – did they conceive of recording – and then bring that to police?
        You say “alleged victim” – as if it is a charge/offense of a more personal nature – something “domestic”?
        As opposed to something more “against the Commonwealth” – like the sale of a controlled substance…
        That too – raises issues of a private citizen’s ability to record you – to choose to record you.
        Also – you mention nothing about the location of the recording… Your own home or otherwise place with a right to privacy for you individually?
        Or someplace of a more public nature – or maybe the recording party’s private property?
        That you asked if you were being recorded – and got a “no” answer – it may be of relevance as well… Depending on what the answers are to other questions. And – expecting that your asking it does appear in the recording – along with whatever else it is that has you in the crosshairs.
        If it was a proper “sting” – then you’re likely without much hope. That being, it was an active investigation, and as Jennifer said – the recording flowed from a warrant, etc..
        But often they get lazy – and think they can do the paperwork later, after the fact.
        Your own job – as you’re described it here – is to get to the bottom of several questions related to the recording first. To see if it is something that can be challenged on an evidentiary level for admissibility against you.
        It is far less of a black and white thing than most imagine it to be. As most interactions and misadventures with the law are.
        Based on what you’ve said – and not said – getting the recording tossed out is your best hope of staying away from serious trouble.
        Good luck.

  32. tamara Siegfried

    I am in desperate need of help my mother had me and my family
    Fiancé and children thrown out of her house today by the police with no eviction letter or notice of intent nothing ever mentioned we have receipts and she agreed that rent has always been paid and is current we receive mail
    At the house my fiancé has her address on her license as my mothers address and our children are enrolled in the school district which she had signed the affidavit for and had come with me to get notarized and anyway it is winter we were thrown out given two hours to get our kids and stuff and are now homeless and I just paid the rent not to mention it’s my minor sons bday oh yes and the whole time my children were crying and we were packing in a mad panic she and my sister we video taping us with out our consent

    1. I’m sorry to hear all of this. I’m afraid I wouldn’t know how to help you. It sounds like you have much greater concerns than the fact that you were being videotaped. I suggest you contact legal aid to see if they can provide you with any legal assistance. http://www.palegalaid.net/

  33. Marcy Brown

    What does the law say about the police recording a witness’s testimony at the police station when she was not told she was being recorded? This is in the heart of northwestern Pennsylvania. Is it admissible?

    1. You have no expectation of privacy in a police station. Whether the recording is admissible depends on the specific circumstances, but there is nothing illegal about the police recording you in a police station.

  34. tibbits

    i live in pa and one of my siblings recorded me on my patio at my fathers home can they do that

    1. It really depends on whether you have an expectation of privacy at your father’s home. I cannot answer that question.

      1. tibbits

        so if i am out in the open ground as this is i would not have an expectation of privacy ?

        1. Declan McManus

          It’s less about “open ground” than it is about rights of privacy on that particular patch of ground.
          You didn’t specify – and it’s pivotal…
          This sibling that recorded you – were they a party to the conversation them self – or – were they recording you in conversation with some other person?
          If it’s the latter then you can be certain – in any state – that the recording is illegally created and obtained.
          Then – place of residence/domicile…
          Do either you or the recording sibling live at the father’s property?
          If you do – and they don’t – your claim of privacy rights is on solid legal ground.
          And less so with the reverse of that.
          It seems that everyone who asks one of these “can they do that?” questions here – leaves out most of the germane detail for diagnosing and determining it for them.
          As they say in the law “…got off on a technicality…” – ALL law is just that – technicality.
          It’s why 64mph is not – but 66mph is a ticketable offense on the interstate.
          Details.

          1. tibbits

            its a shared summer cabin, no one lives there it is only open in the summer months and no they were not there when the recording took place

          2. Declan McManus

            Wow – I’m even more lost after that…?
            If no one “lives there” – who among you is the deed holder, lessee, etc. – who has legal standing to claim privacy there – when your group is gathered there?
            And…
            “No they were not THERE”?
            HOW then did “they” accomplish any recording?
            Are you indicating that the “they” here – had the PLACE wired for recording – and captured recordings of others’ conversations – while “they” were some other place entirely?
            If THAT is the circumstance – then you’re looking at a squarely outside of the bounds of law recording.

            But I don’t dare add more… As I’m not sure I understand any of the details of the circumstances – as you’ve communicated those…?

        2. It really is too fact specific to answer your question, sorry to say. It just depends on whether you had a reasonable expectation or not given the exact circumstances.

          1. tibbits

            my other sibling and i are the lease holder and my father owns the building there as several of us and one has been outed from the family and that one said they heard our conversations on one particular weekend when they were not there, we later found a power wire “very poorly wired” under our sitting area we guess it was added to power a recording device my father is still alive and was original and sole owner and lease holder up until a year ago when he put our names on it with the understanding we all are always allowed there yet this one sibling has done some other shady stuff as our father still wants all there we have ousted the one with what we consider good reasons

          2. Declan McManus

            And the weeds grow thicker and deeper…
            Yeah – this one is definitely way too iffy to even speculate on.
            In fact – I’m wondering why it is that you even believe there exists any such recording…
            Because it seems highly improbable – based on what you’ve said here.
            I wouldn’t worry a bit either way.
            The fact we were able to establish – the absence of the alleged recording party – is your definite shield against it ever being used in any meaningful way.
            Their revealing of any recordings captured in that way – for whatever their purpose – is their confession to the crime – which, in PA – I’m pretty certain would be filed as a felony case, given the details you’ve described.
            The only question is – will you be willing to pull the trigger on that if it comes to it?
            But this “power wire” theory…
            In an age of $19.99 digital devices that can run recording for days on 2 AA batteries… and any number of other practical ways of recording that don’t involve running hard electrical wiring…
            I don’t think there was ever any real cause for concern that you had been recorded. Not by the presence of some unknown purpose wiring.

          3. tibbits

            do you think i would need to find the recording before i go to police? we do not know for sure yet only talk of a recording no one has hear anything yet? can we force them to turn over the recordings?

          4. Declan McManus

            I’d bet my remaining teeth that there is no recording – and never was.
            Your “wire” theory is as close to a nothing basis as there could be.
            No police agency will indulge you any of their time on anything less than solid proof of a recording made – and you would have to also be able to prove that the recording person, which you said was not present, was also completely devoid of any property rights to the location where any recording was captured. Which you described to be some sort of family property with ownership rights gone to several siblings from a father – and the alleged recorder is one.
            The only possible action – if you’re inclined and motivated – would be filing civil suit. Alleging some kind of intentional tort like fraud or breach of contract – if there is one for the property itself, as there often is with multiple party ownership.
            And you would have to do that on your own – as no lawyer would take it on. Unless of course you’re willing to pour thousands of dollars into it – you could retain someone on an hourly basis.
            But, if you did have the will and skill to take it on yourself – not at all an unrealistic option – you could at least hope to get to an eventual point where you would be able to subpoena any recordings. But your adversary seems to be in a position of sufficient plausible deniability – that they could just maintain that no such recording ever existed.
            As well – it sounds like you’d never be able to recover any monetary award for proving your case – if you ever could. Or even recoup your costs.
            And that is what I remain convinced is your reality anyway – there is no recording.
            So the effort and costs would be entirely up to how badly you wish to fight about the matter with the person you are seeking the fight with. Clearly there are more emotional concerns here than any other kind. As is typical in family/domestic situations that people seek to make legal of.
            The claim of them having “heard… conversations” is likely nothing more than them playing you all – as they know you well enough – and speculated on your topics with enough accuracy to get exactly the kind of reaction they’re getting out of you.
            I’d suggest – over any legal process – upping your own chess game with regard to this one “outed” family member. They seem to really have your number – and an ability to get the whole hive buzzing over nothing. Which has to be pleasing to them as their reason int he first place.

          5. I think if you have absolutely no evidence you will have trouble getting the police to do much of anything, if anything at all. Hopefully the person is just making it up.

          6. tibbits

            thank you for your time

          7. Declan McManus

            And I SECOND that – again.
            Without something sufficient to PROVE IT to any cop first – none would invest in your claim with any kind of investigation.
            And I second myself here…
            If it’s really bothersome to you – to not know – and/or to not even get your chance to confront the situation in a way that forces at least them to answer “on the record” is they did or did not record you…
            And it would be to me – in plenty of situations…
            You can try a minimum approach maybe – and send them a letter, signed by all of you that are the total of individuals present at this place and time where you worry you had been recorded – preferably signed with a notary stamp ( if only to communicate your own seriousness to someone in a seemingly unsophisticated position regarding their own understanding of the law ) – then mail it – do not hand deliver or place it in their mail yourself.
            Include a return envelope with postage – give them every lock on what would be the typical adult responsibility escape hatch for them – and see what happens next.
            My seven years in Western PA, after ca 40 in 5 other states – has shown me that it is a region with more than its share of children running around in adult bodies – behaving as children do, avoiding virtually every responsibility and duty they have – so much of that arising out of teenage baby-making, cigarettes & booze, and appointments with just about every County level agency that exists in the Commonwealth.
            So…
            Doing a thing like calling someone out on bad behavior – even criminal behavior – tends to have a much lesser effect here than I’ve seen elsewhere.
            There simply are not the kinds or likelihood of actual consequences – coming around the corner to greet them – when they have definitely crossed a line or three.
            And then there is always a turning of the tables…
            Confront them in person WHILE LEGALLY RECORDING THEM… Get am’ all lathered up on emotion – and provoke them into admitting it – if it’s in there to be excavated out?
            Short of anything like that – it defaults back to only two choices…
            File civil legal action yourself – to get subpoena power on the question.
            Or just live with it – the very soft possibility that you were recorded.
            Unless the conversation in question is something that you really have to fear from – like some discussion of criminal activity or the like…
            Then I’d have to wonder – what’s in it for you – to bother?

            But Jennifer seems to know the same things I do about a likely reaction from any law enforcement agency you will get – for a completely evidence-less accusation.

            You’ve got some options – versus a nothing option.
            As you can retrace my steps here and see – my line is always the same simple truth…
            There are only 2 questions that exist in English or any other language – which together can explain every thing about everything in the entire universe…
            1.) What do you want?
            2.) What are you willing to do to get that?
            And with most things – it’s always “up to you”.
            Unfortunately, contemporary american culture exists as the evidence that recent past american culture failed – to take part, speak up, do diligence, etc..
            And we are now living in a time where apathy, inaction, and a very poor attitude towards those of us who will act when transgressed against – they rule – and getting someone else – without significant money involved in motivating them – to do what is your bidding, or just their own formal, legal, occupational duty – on your behalf when appealed to…
            That has become – not just far too much to ask.
            But also a thing used to point a finger at you – for being the odd or overly concerned one – in a crowd of sleep walkers… And then it’s only a short step into “kill the messenger” on YOU – should you make any remark about their duty or job… You’re just the obsessed nut that is harassing them about something that’s all in your head. Which becomes their basis for acting against you – with something like arrest or citation.
            Gotta’ pretty much do it all with your own two hands anymore.
            And since that’s more than most would commit to – nothing much ever improves – in fact – it only keeps trending towards more nothingness.
            And those of us who remain willing to confront… Well – that becomes, eventually, the reason for all sorts of other trouble – like fiscal, social and – if you “scare” any of them with the commitment in your remarks about their failure… Maybe your name goes on a list – and you run into trouble boarding a plane next year?
            I defy anyone to point out what exists and actually functions AS “American” in the 21st Century, in the realm of civil liberties and basic rights to not be encroached upon by others.
            I would welcome with glee – any news of actually functional systems anywhere in the states… My survey of many only reports total failure.

          8. You are welcome. Good luck.

  35. PA concerned parents

    Okay I have a question…
    My husband and I have shared legal joint custody of his son,
    His son was visiting another relative and called us to tell us about abuse going on in his home
    He’s terrified to come forward himself out of fear of retaliation from his grandmother and bio mother and there is a detective involved so we felt we needed to record his conversation with us. We live in PA, was it legal?
    We did this because we fear for his safety and he was also stating to us that his grandmother and bio mother were making false allegations towards us and he was being forced to repeat them and is terrified to tell the detective himself. We want to bring this to detective as soon as possible and honestly if there’s some fine or jail time involved we’re willing to take it to save him but we just want to know if we should expect this or not even worry because again, it is for his safety primarily

    1. PA concerned parents

      and for clarification, I’m his step mother, not his biological mother

    2. It is generally illegal. I suggest you speak to a lawyer about whether it would be a good idea to go to the police so you can get permission to record.

      1. Declan McManus

        …and I second Jennifer on this one too.
        With two caveats…
        One – you can always get the child’s consent to make the recordings – if I understand the context correctly – how you’re doing it, when and how, etc….?
        Just explain to them how it may matter later – they’re a minor and you’re an adult who understands more about future implications, blah-blah – something valid & true – that will put that am ease enough to agree to it.
        And two – “fine or jail time…” is a more serious concern with a thing like recording in PA – as it is mostly filed as a felony charge when it is filed.
        You’d better be real careful about what you discuss and admit to – and START asking all of your questions about this in the HYPOTHETICAL… As if you were wanting to be able to – thinking about – but maybe NOT YET begun… Making any recordings.
        And then – given that you’ve said there’s already a detective involved…
        Assuming you’re not the suspect to the case said detective is working…?
        You might want to discuss it as a protective possibility to BEGIN – on their advice AND CONSENT…?
        Since you’re dealing in family law – where the boundaries are fuzzier than any other area of the law…. There may be a way for you to get authorization to record – if the case is as you describe – and you can make a reasonable case for “his safety” that cops and courts will believe you in. As opposed to a thing they see far too much of – a cycle of retaliatory fighting among family members – where they have no way of knowing who started what or who is actually an “offender” of some kind – versus – just playing along in the same kind of ego and emotion driven game that is common in family disputes… That the system is pretty allergic to by now – and excludes itself from involvement.
        If you can make your case to them that there is a legitimate safety concern – and perhaps AS importantly – that these other people are, as you say, falsely fabricating criminal allegations against you…
        That would be a prosecutable offense that might motivate law enforcement.
        If they could be sold on the idea that was actually what was happening.

        PA is my 6th state of residence – and I’ve never seen the kind of volume and high percentage rate of domestic/custody/family/personal conduct fighting brought into the courts anywhere else. Not to mention the high rate of blood relative criminal charges too…
        What is it about PA that any visit to the local prothonotary’s office will yield these kinds of cases, with any random pulling of case files to read?
        Meanwhile…
        It is the least desirable area of practice for most attorneys.
        Low to no money in it – and ten times the drama and ancillary troubles for the lawyer, involved in working such cases.

        Kind of makes me even more glad I went for the vasectomy as early as I did – against the chorus of voices telling me how I’d change my mind later…
        Where I’ve only gotten a much longer list of reasons to confirm a right choice was made.

        ugh!

        Good luck… BE CAREFUL!

        1. PA Concered parents

          Thank you, that does help clear some things up and yes it is quite the mess. My husband, the biological father, has never had much confidence and the grandma and biological mother are like two teenagers in high school the way they behave. It is a sad situation as the children are the ones truly suffering here. If I had my own way about it I’d of brought them to court years ago as child services are always involved with them, but that job can only be accomplished by my husband and his belief is that if he tries to bring them to justice they will win and he will never see his children again because he tried to get them. Simply because they’re women and they said that’s what will happen. It amazes me that CYS has done so little to even help the children even when my stepson called 911 on them crying they were abusing him.
          So yes we can provide everything to prove they are more than capable of doing exactly what my stepson says they’re doing.
          Thankfully he’s also shared this info with other family members who have been doing what they can to pass it on to authorities, he just won’t do it himself 🙁
          Just very sad, thank you again for your replies

  36. Liam

    I live in PA. I was terminated from my employer following accusation of theft. I was the general manager of the establishment. The conversation leading to my termination occurred in my office behind closed doors. During this conversation my direct supervisor convinced me that it would be in my best interest to admit to him that I stole the item in question even if I hadn’t, at least we could move past the matter. I wasn’t terminated until after being deceived into admitting guilt to him. Following this I have been charged with theft by unlawful taken. The only piece of evidence that supports my charge is the conversation that was recorded by my supervisor in my office, with out my knowledge. Would I possibly have reasonable expectation of privacy?

    1. You might, but you might not. There is a business exception for recording. If you are actually charged then you will want to let a lawyer know. The lawyer can deal with the evidence and see if a judge will throw it out.

  37. PA_Mom

    I’m in PA.
    I’ve been suspecting that my ex husband has been recording phone call conversations between my daughter and I. Recently I’ve been hearing an initial beep sound when I call to speak to my daughter. I don’t put this past him because we are going through a custody battle and he would probably want to know exactly what my daughter and I talk about. Very weird…
    Can he get in trouble for that?
    My biggest question is how do I prove this?? Go to the cops? If he’s informed of a subpoena beforehand then he can easily delete the app he uses to record calls or just delete any records he has.
    I also dont want to go making false accusations.

    1. If you have a lawyer, I would start by talking to him/her about your suspicions. You can call the police and file a complaint. The police can investigate. You can express your concerns to the police about the app and deletion. Frequently, forensics can be used to discover deleted content. Whether he will get in trouble really depends on whether the police file charges and whether a prosecutor decides to go forward with any charges.

    2. Declan McManus

      You also might want to enlist the daughter…
      Depending on her age/ability level – and of course a willingness.
      Perhaps she’d be as peeved about being recorded herself?
      If you’re really out to prove it – you’re going to have to avoid any law enforcement involvement and get creative individually.
      Unless you’ve got a solid personal relationship with a cop in the right jurisdiction – the kind that would get you high quality special favors…
      No police agency – especially in PA – is going to invest the kind of time, or resources like a forensic examination of a telephone… And that’s IF you could get it by subpoena or any mechanism other than theft of it yourself.
      And then there is the matter of a total destruction or simple claim of “I lost it” about the phone…
      It would be highly unlikely that it remained in existence – once he was aware it was being sought.
      Just ask Tom Brady…

      As a legal matter – there is almost nothing possible for you here.
      As a matter of needing to know as an individual, for strategic or other purposes…
      You are only limited by yourself – and your own ability and willingness to be resourceful at finding out.

      One tends to run into all kinds of barricades – once problems arise and solutions become part of discussions with others, the law, and various apparent limitations…
      But there really, in all functional reality, are only two questions int he entire universe – and they can explain and answer for everything in it…
      1.) What do you want?
      2.) What are you willing to do to get that?

      Where you likely hear a whole lot more “you can’t do that…” kind of stuff – than not…
      Know that you can do whatever it is that you decide and prepare yourself to do.
      There is no force, concept or imaginary god invented yet that is more powerful than the motivated and skillful human individual.

  38. Should you tell a person before or after that they are being recorded?
    I had an instance when a “Lady” called me to ask some questions but the lady did not tell me she was recording the conversation right before she was about to hang up. Is she able to use it in the court of Law?

    1. Before. Whether she can use it in court, I cannot say.

    2. Declan McManus

      Yeah – there needs to be A LOT more CONTEXT to these scenarios you folks are asking about.
      If this “Lady” was on a line that began with a transfer/hold OGM – one that told you the call could be recorded…
      Typically – of course it is before any recording actually takes place.

      BUT… If there is – as it sounds may be the case – some ongoing communication with her you are stuck in – where you were given info about begin recorded previously…
      Or if it is some compulsory relationship you have to her – counselor, family svcs, probation/parole officer, etc….
      You jump right to “THE court of law” as opposed to just “a” – which suggests an expectation you have that it will end up there – which lends itself to all of the other included speculation.

      For anyone – including yourself – to be able to say with any meaning or credibility – there needs to be a lot more information about the circumstances of the conversation.

      But it sounds like you said something you maybe regret – and found out too late in the going that it will be coming back to bite you…?

      For all such situations, where you either suspect, expect or flat out know that the other side of a conversation is recording that…
      It’s always best to have your own original copy – for instances of remarks being used without fair context.

  39. Janet Lynch

    If a minor student is being questioned by school administrators, can the interrogation be recorded without the child’s knowledge or consent?

    1. Depends on the state in which it occurs. Not in Pennsylvania. A child has a right to privacy as much as anyone else.

      1. Declan McManus

        There may be circumstances where the recording is legit – most often through “consent” given, way earlier – in things like enrollment papers – where it was “fine print”.
        As well – there may be sign postings in the locations where the recording can be done – so long as proper legal notice is given before hand. And posted signs will usually cover that legally.
        You’re going to need to know a lot more of the specifics – in order to arrive at whether or not it’s worth any fight against it’s legality to begin with.
        Even in Pennsyltucky.

        1. Karla Mooney

          My son was speaking to his mother on the speakerphone on my cell phone and I was across the room and could hear every word and I recorded the conversation. How could my son’s mother have had an expectation of privacy if he was on speakerphone? Can I get in trouble?

          1. It really depends on whether she had an expectation of privacy. The thing is, just because you are on the speakerphone does not mean you leave yourself open to being recorded. You were not even part of the conversation though, and that makes it more problematic. Can you get in trouble? Anything is possible. Will you? Who knows. I suggest you speak to a lawyer before you think you will do such a thing again.

          2. Declan McManus

            Jennifer nailed it – the most troublesome aspect for you is that you were doing what is always viewed, regardless of whether you’re in a single party, as PA is, or a dual party consent state – as “eavesdropping” and/or wire tapping. And the law is pretty clear in most places for that aspect of the overall scenario. The matter of it being a speakerphone situation – for “your son” and yourself… Says nothing at all about whether that was known to the caller on the other end – that they were being heard over a speaker phone. And if you do find yourself in any kind of dispute about this later – assuming the child involved is still a minor – where there will be hairs to be split on all of the recording details ( third party, expectation of privacy – reasonable or not, etc. ) any decider, such as a judge, is likely going to have to look at who has legal standing, as regards the minor child. And that’s where I get entirely confused by what you’ve written… You say “my son’s mother” – as also a woman? Legally – whomever has rights of parentage to the child – they will get more traction in front of most judges. Then there is the matter of the nature of the discussion… If someone – yourself – was lingering in the room to be recording the conversation of others… Safe to guess there was some dispute or issue of contention at the heart of the discussion?
            As it stands – as presented here – it would be my opinion that it was an illegally obtained recording.
            Whether that will ever matter… That’s up to who knows – and whether they’d like to deliver some grief to you by making hay out of it?

  40. dwayne connors

    hi im new here … but i am concerned .. as what i thought was a friend may have recored a conversation after i had stated i better not be being recorded ….what are my venues to verify i hadnt been recorded and if i were what actions can i take … concered as he can delete or keep what he/she feels fit for what ever thier purpose is …. how does one deal with this

    1. Unless you have some evidence you were recorded, there isn’t too much you can do. You can ask the person if he recorded you. Also, it depends on what state you live in. The laws vary.

    2. Declan McManus

      Jennifer beat me to it… What STATE – first… And then WHERE – in what kind of property, in-person, over a phone…?
      But – on what and how you communicated what you did…
      It all sounds very personal and emotional – as opposed to anything with consequences that would be other than social in nature.
      The only thing you can do is WAIT… For any attempt for it to be claimed and used against you – THEN you spring on them. IF it took place ( the recording ) in an unlawful setting.
      Otherwise… You’re kind of describing a far too vague and personal – for it to be well discussed as a matter of law.
      And then – there is always retaliation… Sometimes the only justice one can avail them self of.
      Get yourself a recorder – and identify a place where it is legal for you to record them – get them there – press record – and then open the discussion with them ABOUT any prior recording they did of you.
      If they admit it in a time and place where you can legally capture them saying that – THEN you can take that to whatever appropriate authority you desire.
      The problem here – and Jennifer, I’d love to hear your echo on this one… Is that too many of you americans tend to regard the law as if it is some binary, yes/no, black & white thing – and then added to that is the problem of the ever-present “knowledge” which is shared around in society – where “folk law” is passed on in a verbal tradition of complete ERROR. And folks end up relying on THAT for their reference when THEY decide to act – and how – all the while thinking and telling others that they “know the law” and are doing things in compliance with that.
      When the better chances are that – the thing your buddy told everyone down the bar, as he sat there and held court as it were – giving everyone the pearls of his wisdom… And the crowd goes on down the road thinking they just learned something of use. When in fact – it is as likely an instructional on how to get into real trouble – by proceeding in actual ignorance of whatever the relevant law is.
      There should be some useful civics, social science and “everyday law” taught at some level of american schooling – but sadly – your country – set up to be BASED ON ONLY laws… You all tend to wander around in it with no functional knowledge for any of that. And most fail to ever take the initiative of personal curiosity or utility – and get themselves an education in the law of their life – and become capable of dealing with at least those aspects of it which touch their lives.
      So – yes – I am faulting the schools systems all across the nation indeed – BUT…
      At the end of the day – each individual has to be accountable for them self. Especially when they start flinging accusations around and placing those into a context of “legal” or not.

      Dwayne… You have some doing to start doing – if you truly want to get to the bottom of the issue you posed here.
      If it’s worth it to you – you will.
      I see a lot of these kinds of scenarios – they all begin with a vigorous and emotionally charged bellow of righteous indignation by someone… Who then fizzles out – usually around the time when they are required to start spending some time in ways that feel too much like school used to feel to them – so they bail on it.
      If you’re serious enough about the matter – you will be able to get to the information you’re seeking.
      Even if you had to break into their place and search it for the device(s) to confirm you suspicions.
      It’s all a question of what I refer to as my own personal philosophy… Nope – it’s not “Stoicism” and not even “Nihilism” – it is “The world according to two questions” – and I find it applies universally to just about all situations – personal and professional, financial and religious, sexual and financial…
      And they are:
      1.) What do you want?
      2.) What are you willing to do to get that?

      Those two right there – if you ask and answer those to yourself – honestly…
      Then you know precisely what you need to be doing and where you need to be doing that.

      Lastly though – on your one stated concern…
      As I do try to be helpful here.
      Realistically – you have nothing real to fear of it – even if you were recorded… If in fact you did state openly your desire to not be recorded.
      That alone should be sufficient to quash/exclude any such recordings of you that might surface – if you did make that declaration.
      There are rights to confidence and privacy that can be referenced by you – separate from the recording laws which may well be THE thing to protect you ( but we don’t know any of the needed info to be able to give opinion on your main question ) – that, should you find yourself being confronted or accused with such recordings… You’ll have plenty to work with to defend yourself.
      Unless of course this is just a matter of personal and emotional anguish… And not anything legal.
      There – all we can do as people is be the kind of people who don’t mind being recorded in any particular situation – because we have integrity. And what gets said here – can easily and confidently be repeated over there – because we are the kind of serious and sober adults who mean what we say when we are heard to say it.

      1. Yes, most people think the law is black and white. It rarely is.

        1. Declan McManus

          … AND…
          What’s seemingly so much worse is the notions out there – and the misunderstood conclusions which you find already in place with many. That you have to combat that – before you can begin to replace it with corrected understanding.
          It’s part of a larger betrayal of all intellectualism in american culture – where there is a willful pride in ignorance – in remarks commonly heard like “I don’t need no damn sa’tistics – I know what I know” and the ever present “The Bo’bble says so…”
          It is much harder to work over bad art – than a blank canvas – to get to an eventual masterpiece.
          And americans by and large have continually shown themselves to be far more interested in giving the appearance of knowledge – for effect and ego – than actually interested in knowing – for the value and power that knowledge itself is.
          Classic case in point – the american fixation on the sheepskin of having a degree… Mere rubber-stamping for employment gate-keeping.
          Where – had we any culture that valued wisdom and analytical thinking… Well – we’d have something that nowhere near resembles what we’re now stuck with.

  41. K.T.

    I live in Florida I record my ex wife’s phone conversations between her and myself because she constantly says she never said something or that I said something I never said and says she’s going to let her lawyer know. we have a daughter together and she’s constantly trying to put her against me. I let her know long ago that I was recording all of our conversations via phone and she openly admits to knowing that I do as recently as two months ago… Would this constitute as consent even though I don’t say each time that I’m recording?

    1. I really cannot say. It would depend on how Florida interprets consent. But I can tell you that what you are doing is extremely risky and could well be violating Florida law. http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/florida-recording-law Personally, I think knowledge is different from consent.

      1. Declan McManus

        Ditto – and most statutes view each event of recording as its own event in need of disclosure that there is recording being done.
        Knowledge – especially in an emotionally charged domestic situation – where people in those situations fling about all sorts of silly remarks at each other – intending to get a reaction…
        Is indeed a very different thing than consent.
        I’d bet the ranch on each call requiring its own disclosure of recording.
        This is precisely why there are more former practitioners of domestic and family law than any other area of practice. It only takes a few cases to realize that one is less practicing in the law than in babysitting and grade-school level mediating the hurt feelings of two or more parties who have about as much to do with the law as the proverbial fish does with the bicycle.

  42. Donna Marie

    In the state of PA, is it illegal to video/record someone on a cell phone that is 18″ away from their face without consent?

    1. If the person has an expectation of privacy, yes.

  43. Ray

    Just curious.. Since “B” has passed away, could anyone else press charges? Thanks

    1. Declan McManus

      That person would have to be able to show objectively how they too, separate from “B” were harmed by the act of recording. And that is all apart from the statutory issues which likely expired years ago. But, if you’re asking about trying to file a criminal complaint – “on behalf of” “B” – that’s a definite no. Unless “B” were a minor child, and filer was a parent or legal guardian of.
      It sounds like this all arises out of more personal and emotional motivations – which also – will win you no support with cops and prosecutors.
      Without being able to demonstrate actual harm flowing form “A”‘s actions in recording – you’ll never get it anywhere – criminally or civilly.
      But, if there is a there there – filing a civil suit is likely your only avenue to attempt anything.

      1. Ray

        I’m “A”… In 2007 I was required couseling after CPS wrongfully took my son. (My alegations were “unfounded”) “B’ was the couselor, now passed away. He told me he couldn’t provide a favorable report because his organisation was getting paid by the CPS. (In other words the counselor must report what CPS wishes.) The next visit I brought in a small mp3 recorder and got the him to repeat it and the recording of it.

        1. Ray

          … for the record… i’m not trying to press charges against the counselor. I’m more concerned if some one can (still) press charges on me for the ‘secret’ recording.

          1. Declan McManus

            “pressing charges” doesn’t enter into any consideration for me here.
            I think I pretty well stated what are far wider and more compelling concerns – for a great number of people.
            But – again – this goes back to that question, which has been pretty thoroughly answered here already…
            There would HAVE TO BE a “COMPLAINANT” with LEGAL STANDING to press charges against you. That person is said to be deceased.
            And then there is the statute of limitations – and given your timeline – longer than seven years ago – THAT further makes it highly unlikely that it could be possible for anyone to try to file a charge on you.

            So…

            Are you able to QUOTE this language – that has a licensed counselor of some sort – saying it straight out to you – that THEIR WORK’S RESULTS ARE PRECONCEIVED – as HAVING TO BE IN FAVOR OF whatever CPS wanted…
            Thus rendering – well – ALL KINDS of legal problems…

            Sorry – but – those of us who deal in the law – have to always remain skeptical – until there is at least some objective showing of what is misconduct by any official measure. As opposed to what is merely the personal grievance of a given individual.
            My gut is telling me that there’s no way that someone working within the system – and doing as you allege – would actually come out with it so directly in your presence.
            Basically, admitting a significant criminal conspiracy.

            But… If you’ve actually got the goods on them – your own moral compass should be guiding you towards getting such information into the hands of as many people as is possible.

        2. Declan McManus

          Ooh… A VERY different set of rules may just apply to THAT kind of situation…
          As it was a client/counselor setting – where the confidentiality privilege flows to the CLIENT…
          But – that it was – I’m assuming – compulsory ? And was known to be taking place for forensic purposes (direct reporting to a court or other governmental authority)…
          This one’s more complex than initially presented.
          If you actually DO have what you’re saying you have – THAT is simply far too compelling – FOR COUNTLESS OTHER THOUSANDS of people in similar circumstances for you to NOT reveal it – and I’d be looking for a JOURNALIST FIRST with that kind of recording.
          Again – assuming all as true…
          If a CSW, LCSW, PhD or otherwise, with professional ETHICS at stake – SAID WHAT YOU ATTRIBUTE to them…

          If they truly stated it in those terms – and it’s not some interpretation error on your part – reading THAT from some other phrasing…
          YOU HAVE TO GET THAT OUT AND KNOWN TO OTHERS.
          Anything less would be your contributing to what could very possibly be a continuing conspiracy to defraud the courts/social service agencies / whomever RELIES UPON such “expert” analysis and reporting in order to render legal decisions.

          Any chance you could message in here A DIRECT TRANSCRIPTION of the recording?

          Funny timing… I AM WORKING ON ONE OF THOSE right now…
          It’s slow going work – transcribing from mp3 recorders – but SO WORTH IT – if and when you truly have the goods on somebody – and by simply exposing truth – you shake their foundations.

          1. Ray

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvT4s3zTzMI

            This is the part I have posted for the public. I do have the whole one-hour session stored at various places. Verbally, he told me, yes, I was a very capable parent, but he still endorsed CPS reports to the contrary, and here he says why.

          2. Declan McManus

            I reviewed the youtube bit…
            And – it’s not as directly quid pro quo as a “my outcomes ARE always FOR CPS because I work for/with them”
            BUT DAMN… THAT IS PRETTY ON THE NOSE!

            I’d be looking for an investigative journalist – one that could USE YOUR RECORDING ONLY TO VERIFY THAT YOUR TELLING is true and accurate…
            Which a reporter CAN THEN GO DIGGING INTO OTHER CASES of that counselor – and believe it or not – they and their editors PREFER three people SAYING a thing happened – over one SOLIDLY PROVEN case with a recording.
            But – in any event…
            They’d interview a handful – or more – get THEIR versions – and I’d have to assume THERE ARE PLENTY OTHERS OUT THERE to be heard from…
            And then they’d be off and running.

            So many of your american systems are so abysmally bankrupt – morally, ethically – and YOU NAILED IT with the sound effects… CHA CHING!

            AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE NEED TO HEAR YOUR RECORDING – and the best and most credibility lending way would be for you to conduit that through a journalist.

            Seriously – WHAT are you waiting for?
            Get this info OUT THERE – IN THE LOCAL JURISDICTION that it all happened in.
            I’d be screaming it from every rooftop if I were in your shoes.
            And I’ve done some of that kind of thing – it is the basis of a case that i actually MADE state law with in NY.
            I of course had the added advantage of NY being a single party consent state – one of the 38 – while Pennsyltucky is in that minority of 12 – AND THAT IS LEFT ON THE BOOKS TO PROTECT POWERFUL SCUMBAGS!
            There’s a favorite old quote I have – and it’s got vague provenance – but goes like this…

            “Excellence HAS NOTHING TO FEAR FROM OBSERVATION”

            When people suit up TO DO THE PUBLIC’S WORK – in ANY state – THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT.
            And – even IF someone TRIED to come at you FOR the recording…
            Given that this guy was functioning “under toe color of state law” – there may very well be FIRST AMENDMENT Federal protection for you in recording.
            But none of that will ever matter – there is no Commonwealth statute that can be used to charge you now – the limitation is GONE, even if this WHORE OF THE SYSTEM was still ALIVE.

            I’d be out there five minutes ago calling every reporter whose name I could find on the internet.
            AND…
            THIS chat board will serve as PROOF that you DID YOUR DILIGENCE – and were NOT some hot head, running off half cocked and less informed.

            Wow… That’s some pretty compelling stuff.
            “SUICIDE”
            Kinda’ says it all – don;t you think?

    2. Individuals don’t press charges. They go to the police and file a complaint. The police then decide whether they believe a crime has been committed. If they believe it has, they go to the prosecutor and the prosecutor decides whether to go forward. So, the question would be whether there is proof that the person was recorded illegally and whether it would be worth it to go forward with a case when the victim was no longer alive.

  44. Ray

    A real situation: “A” illegally recorded “B” both in Pennsylvania in 2007. “B” has since past away. Is it too late for anyone to press charges on “A”?

    1. It depends on the statute of limitations for the crimes with which A could be charged. The death of B would not preclude being charged. If too much time has passed, that would preclude charges.

    2. Declan McManus

      Jennifer’s absolutely right, and most misdemeanors and minor felonies have a 3 year limitation. 7 in some instances. And even if… You’d never find a cop to take the complaint – or prosecutor to work the case. As the immediate defense – that could not be discredited – would be that “B.” had given consent to the recording when it happened. If there is any actual & demonstrable harm as a result of the recording – nothing would stop you from filing a civil suit. Where Exhibit A would be to point out the original criminality of the action when it was done.

  45. curious student

    Great article, I was curious to know if note taking either written or typed of a phone conversation are still considered “recordings” under the PA law and would have to follow the dual consent law of the state. I live in philly if that helps at all.

    1. Thank you. No, there is no problem with taking written or typed notes.

  46. I really can’t comment on the rest of your post. I agree though, that recording is the least of the concerns here.

  47. Declan McManus

    Yeah – um… That is PRECISELY WHY I asked what I asked THE WAY I asked it…
    Even when you spoon feed others’ THEIR own caution…
    State College area is definitely that part of the Commonwealth known as “Pennsyltucky” – and Philly… Is just NO comparison to the western part of PA.
    Two entirely different cultures – education levels – teen mom rates – smoking, drinking, etc. socio-economics…
    You can all reference the Commonwealth’s own annual reports – they come out typically late Feb / Early Mar ea. year – Depts. of Education, Justice, Public Benefits, etc…
    And it’s always the western cities as the economic albatross around the neck of the entire state.

    And – my presumption on the teacher thing…

    An easy one to make – given the initial descriptive…

    That it’s not a normal cognition – and most especially – not normally socialization and crucially – COMMUNICATION situation or kid…

    Good luck I guess?

    Sounds like too many domestic scenarios I’ve observed…

    And – for the caution against MY inquiries…

    We must note – it all took place inside of a less than 24 hour period – that began with …can I record I think they’re saying things on the phone…
    And then – very soon after – a deluge of “evidence” – that would and should have had a place in the initial outlay that was seeking feedback in a legal context.

    But it hardly matters at this point…

    She is facing a far less “legal” scenario – than as much of a “domestic” one – and all that is whatever is the history of “exes” – any conflicts with the new girl in daddy’s life – and on and on along that continuum…

    The police will have to contextualize everything into that paradigm.

    And determine first – a among a few frequent flier causes…

    If there is merely an attempt to create trouble for the new woman in the “step mom” role.

    Point being…

    The legalities of making audio recordings does not even make the first page of listed concerns within this narrative.

    I’m still amazed at the casual nature of americans’ breeding practices in the last several decades…
    Given all that is known – and reasonable to be expected in the lives and futures of anyone born in that period…
    And why are such an increasing percentage of them coming up with all manner of special needs…?

    And who is going to pay for all of it – when the number feeding from the commons trough exceeds the number that are putting into it?
    Erie, PA is definitely a prelude to that crash condition that is only a matter of time in its coming for the entire nation.
    And it ain’t pretty in that little hick town…
    Gonna’ be a real sorry site when it’s universal between the Delaware and Colorado rivers…
    The coasts will always have their higher performance and functioning humans.

  48. She said she is in the t3 Centre Region, that would be around State College. I personally am near Philadelphia, used to live in the Harrisburg area.

  49. a concerned parent

    In Pennsylvania, Can I record my 12 year old son’s phone conversation he is having with a non parent adult that I believe is abusing/touching him?
    My son has a phone on speaker and if I pick it up in another room, if my son was to give consent? I am curious what can be done if you suspect the person is telling your 12 year child their conversations need to be private and not to tell anyone what they talk about. shes a 30 year old female

    Im the mom.

    1. I would suggest you call the police, tell them what is going on and see if they can get a warrant to record the conversation.

      1. Declan McManus

        Jennifer – and “the mom”…
        Should we FIRST establish a few facts from her – before giving advice – a kind that can just as likely ruin any chance this woman has at ACTUALLY gathering the kind of intelligence about thew situation that could/would grant her the peace of mind of KNOWING things…
        As police agencies go – PA – and its often very outmoded Commonwealth style of laws, law enforcement and any general sense of progressive or proactive thinking and strategizing around problems…
        “the mom”…
        1.) WHERE in PA are you – just generally by region ( NE/NW/SE/SW ) if you’re the paranoid kind – but city name would help…
        2.) WHAT IN TOTAL is there to be reported to any police – JUST THE ONE phone call?
        3.) The female teacher in question – WHAT do you actually KNOW about her profile / personality / lifestyle / history…
        4.) WHAT KIND of reaction(s) do you get from your boy ABOUT HER as a subject – for how long – beginning when – how long has he had a history with her (just this school year or longer)…

        I’m telling you…
        THE MOMENT YOU OPEN IT UP TO ANY KIND OF OFFICIALS – YOUR ABILITY TO CONDUCT ANY SUBSTANTIVE OR SUCCESSFUL investigation is going to END.
        The teacher will become AWARE – and then there is the matter of your son – in the community, school, activities, sports, etc….
        HE IS GOING TO BECOME THE RECIPIENT / TARGET of others’ need to chime in – IGNORANTLY as often as not…

        Be as SURE and READY – DO your diligence and your THINKING about the DOMINO CHAIN that involving others, outsiders, bureaucrats – ESPECIALLY ON THE QUESTION OF AMERICA’S CHRIST-LIKE ELEVATION OF CHILDREN ( in this kind of area – while abandoning them in many other ways ) Where everyone will start running around with their hair on fire – and be subject to a proscribed set of actions in a protocol that you WILL NOT be able to slow or stop – as they have to protect themselves from liability claims later…

        I disagree with jumping to calling police – at this point – with the information you’ve given.
        If there is more – and significant more that goes beyond mere speculative suspicion…
        Maybe.
        But as it lays here and now – I would hold off on involving anyone OTHER THAN A VERY GOOD lawyer – and ONE THAT YOU KNOW TO NOT BE SUCH AN INSIDE PLAYER to that local jurisdiction of courts and cops – as THEIR CAREER INTERESTS will trump YOUR needs as the client.

        A whole lot more caution, and measured action is what is called for here – if you’re truly serious about NEEDING TO KNOW the truth of things.

        If you want to just fire up a flare of accusation – and sure – it WILL drop the curtain on this woman…
        WHETHER THERE IS MISCONDUCT OR NOT.
        She will put a country mile between herself and your son – and likely EVERY CHILD…
        Which may just DESTROY not only a career undeservingly – because in america. to be accused is to be guilty – in the eyes of at least half of the people, most of the time…
        And then your son will have six more years of school and socialization…
        In a place where HE MAY BECOME the hated pariah – again – deserving or not.
        I had my own experience with this sort of thing when I was in my 7-8th grade school in NY over 30 years ago – and the teacher was a beloved figure – especially among the kids…
        And NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE what I reported to them about him.
        He never got to the point that he was definitely trying to prep me for – the pants down part…
        As he picked the wrong kid – not passive or automatically obedient to adults and so-called authority figures…
        I stabbed him with a pen – buried it a good inch and a half into his forearm…
        And within three weeks of that I knocked him unconscious with a ‘Cremora’ powdered coffee creamer jar – back when they were made of glass and quite sturdy objects…
        AND I NEVER WAS CALLED TO ANSWER FOR EITHER EVENT – by school principals or police.
        WHY WOULD a teacher KEEP TO HIMSELF that such extreme events had taken place???

        I’m telling you…
        If you involve police – or even talk too much in your community… ALL of the control and ability to investigate will disappear from you.

        But then – this kind of thing is a larger part of why I am leaving the united states…

        There just isn’t enough serious, sober, well thought out action – in most arenas.
        There is merely that contemporary americunt ALARMIST PANIC RESPONSE to just about everything…
        Where a little bit of applied thought and intelligence gathering would make all of the difference in the QUALITY of events AND OUTCOMES…

        That’s my two cents – and it’s qualified by its own included reasoning.

        What you want – and want to avoid – expect and hope and all of that…
        Only you know that at this point.
        I would proceed cautiously no matter what.

        1. a concern mom

          WHERE in PA are you – just generally by region ( NE/NW/SE/SW ) if you’re the paranoid kind – but city name would help…

          I am in tj3 centre region

          2.) WHAT IN TOTAL is there to be reported to any police – JUST THE ONE phone call?

          Best way to explain is what I sent to his tss. Yes my son is autistic

          brad came to me this am.
          Around 9 am. He stated he wanted to tell me something that had happened.
          While they were eating at a store one day, his father went to the back to get the food, amber (dad’s gf) was looking at photos on her phone.
          She made a comment about it. brad had stated what.
          She said don’t tell anyone.
          She showed him a picture which he vividly described to me as
          A naked woman bent over the hood of the car while a naked man was inserted into (he called it her butt/crotch area) her having sex with her.
          Some snow covered them and he couldn’t see the male parts. It was very clear they were naked and having sex.
          brad stated 2/3 times he has sat on her lap to watch TV
          He also stated he would “lay up against her head on her boobs” and watch videos with her for long periods of time.
          brad also stated that when she would come home, she would stop everything to hug him, but never went to hug the girls.
          brad also stayed on a few occasions she would tuck him in at night for a long period of time (around 20/30 minutes )
          During this time they would talk about her relationship with his das. It was stated (mumbled) that they weren’t having sex.
          She would also stop talking and wait until dad left.
          This is also a time when she told brad I was being mean to her which set him off at home.
          brad also receive texts messages from amber that stated she was upset and mad that she couldn’t hug him, hold his hand or have him sit on her lap anymore (After his tss billl, mobile therapist and I addressed it with her)
          She also told him on a phone call that anything said between them needs to stay between them. Their conversations were to stay between her and him. And not anyone else

          3.) The female teacher in question – WHAT do you actually KNOW about her profile / personality / lifestyle / history…

          Never stated it was a teacher

          4.) WHAT KIND of reaction(s) do you get from your boy ABOUT HER as a subject – for how long – beginning when – how long has he had a history with her (just this school year or longer)…
          again never said teacher.

          This is live in Dads gf. He knew her for 2 months. Authorities believe she was grooming my son.
          there were tickle fests where she would accidentally get him to touch her chest and she put on a fashion show.
          this is not a light topic. And more Than one call.

          1. a concern mom

            Names were changed to protect everyone while undergoing an investigation

          2. Not sure you really want to post all of this. But I can see why you are concerned. I know Mr. McManus has strong views on the issue, but in my mind, calling the police, especially when you have the situation you are describing, is critical. Personally though, I would delete this particular comment, if I were you.

      2. chris

        I just found out that my roommate has been recording me and my conversations with. Out my knowledge , what can I do about that

        1. Well, if you are sure and you have evidence, I would go to the police. You also could talk to your roommate about it, if you feel safe doing so.

        2. Declan McManus

          Yeah – that one is pretty well distanced over the line.
          But – CAUTION in making that approach/appeal to your local police about it…
          If you get the wrong cop – with the wrong level of professionalism or competence – they could blow it for you – in having any chance to access some kind of recourse.
          If they call/visit – and make the allegation on your behalf – and do it in a way that leaves too much time and other opportunity for the roommate to hide/destroy/etc. the recordings – then you’ll have nothing credible for a record of the events – and then be STUCK IN HELL with a roommate – that you have no soil legal foundation for getting: away from / custody of the residence over them getting it / protection from them spreading the recordings wide – on the web/etc. as their means of avenging your dropping the dime on them – and who knows whatever else in “social” disruption for you – assuming you share some of the same circles…
          Collect your thoughts and facts – and by all means – RECORD your interactions with cops and anyone else they bring into your situation – use a lawyer for it if you can afford or finagle it otherwise…
          Because it can very easily become an even bigger nightmare – than it is to just be living with knowing you might be being recorded…
          You could end up WITH that STILL – and several other unpleasant circumstances INSIDE of your own HOME.
          Proceed carefully and with knowledge and a made-up mind – once it’s begun…
          You might be only a spectator to someone else’s shitshow – out of basic unprofessionalism, if that’s the hand you’re dealt.
          And unfortunately – it is by no means any kind of rare set of cards anymore.

          Best of luck.

    2. Declan McManus

      I would hold off on police most definitely – as you’ll be blowing all lids on any ability you would have to truly investigate. And they’ll likely not proceed with anything meaningful – without you providing hard proof. So all you’ll accomplish is tipping your hand to your suspect.

      On the recording… You can’t legally record anyone in the way you are describing – in any state. You have to be a recognized participant in the conversation to be able to record it legally – and that’s in the 38 states where that is legally permissible. PA is not one of them.

      If this is a real and legitimate concern of yours – if it were me – I would proceed with surreptitious recording. The stakes are simply too high to not become very proactive.
      If such recordings yield anything incriminating in the way you suspect – use that information to be in the right place and time to catch evidence of the sexual crime through direct eye and camera witnessing.

      Depending on where in PA you are… You might actually create trouble for yourself by reporting it to local law enforcement.
      The western part of PA being about as backwater cousin-breeding a place as I’ve seen in america…
      I wouldn’t trust any official in that region with anything more serious than jaywalking.

      You must also consider any other conversation pieces that might be the reason the teacher wants confidentiality with the child…
      No offense – but PA has no shortage of parents who are mixed up in all kinds of dysfunction and criminality – and the teacher may simply be trying to help the kid navigate or escape what she sees as a bad or dangerous situation for the child.
      So… Be ready to become the subject of any investigation yourself. From disability and welfare checks, to medicare and medicaid, Sec 8 and other HUD issues…
      You’d better be air tight that you are completely above reproach if you’re going to flip the switch on an investigation of a licensed professional with resources, presumed credibility and a strong union backing them.
      Can your life survive social microscopy?

      1. a concern mom

        I’ve lived in PA my whole life. I’m not in whatever area you are talking about.
        I have extremely hard evidence now about several things and I contacted cys. They have filed a police report. So yes it is very serious.

        1. Good for you!

        2. Declan McManus

          If you don’t mind…
          Given that WE ARE here in a LEGAL discussion forum environment…
          And it has been less than 24 hours…

          Would you describe for us – in the kind of detail – by kind and type – excluding of course whatever identifiers you need to…
          But WHAT is – in your understanding… “extremely hard evidence now about several things” ?

          There are many here that could likely benefit from your sharing some of your tactics and outcomes – if they’ve actually yielded you “extremely hard evidence”

          I for one am fascinated to hear of how and what that comprises…

          And on the where in PA question – which region is yours?
          Since you’re certain it’s not the same as mine somehow…

          1. Mr. McManus, I get that you are curious, but when the police are building the case, this is not the right time to provide details about a case. Especially if the OP might inadvertently provide information that makes the accused woman or the OP’s child identifiable. I strongly advise OP not to provide this kind of information.

  50. This comment provides information you shouldn’t put in public. So I am editing it. I am also removing your name from this post and the prior one. I wish your daughter the best.

  51. This comment contained information that I felt the person should not share publicly for her own good. I responded with the recommendation that the person speak with a lawyer. I am removing the content of this and changed the name to anonymous.

    1. Your daughter needs to talk to an attorney. A landlord/tenant attorney about her apartment and a criminal attorney about the fact that she has broken the law. If you are being blackmailed, you go to the police, and they can seek a legal warrant. Forget the landlord suing her, your daughter could go to prison. That is the more worrisome outcome at the moment. Hopefully a landlord/tenant attorney can help with the landlord’s eviction efforts. She probably qualifies for legal aid for the landlord/tenant attorney.

  52. Declan McManus

    The question of the legality of the recording resides entirely within the STATE law which dictates that state to be either of two kinds – in simple terms – “one party” or “two party” consent recording. That is to say, any one person engaged in a conversation with how many others, so long as they are a PARTICIPANT in the conversation, can indeed legally record that conversation. FLORIDA is one of the rarer ( only 11 of 50 ) to require TWO PARTY (or ALL if more) consent to BEGIN RECORDING. Type of crime varies by state. And in some it is in fact a felony. BUT… There does exist extensive exceptionality… You have to read your own state’s precise phrasing to its statute. Most include qualifying language to the effect of “where person has a reasonable expectation of privacy…”. And that is of course a widely interpretive thing. Also there is a lot of FEDERAL case law in the district courts around the country that permits recording of government officials who are in the act of their duties and/or acting under color of state law. And that can supersede any State statute. But THE PROBLEM IS THIS… Your state’s “officials” (most commonly, american fascists – in “police” uniforms) WILL ACT HASTILY AGAINST THE RECORDER. We have all become accustomed to police taking and smashing the cameras of citizens recording them with cameras and phones, while they are on public roadways and in parks… And LATER – when you spend eight years of litigation time, and easily twenty thousand dollars in costs – YOU CAN AND WILL PROVE that you indeed HAD THE RIGHT – eight years earlier. But that does nothing to get your footage or equipment back – which they KNEW would be a serious problem for them if it were to become widely viewed. So the incentive is there for such “officials” – even where they KNOW THE LAW TO PERMIT SUCH RECORDINGS – they can act out their destruction, confiscation, etc. – then LATER CLAIM IGNORANCE of the law – and just like cops who murder black males in america – the public eye of credibility and truth minded citizen will be merely ONE MORE group which it is safe for rogue cops and others to be free to HELP HIDE AND REMAIN IN SECRECY, what their own CRIMINAL CONDUCT IS… While they TESTI-LIE in courts about such events. As american idiot citizens grant them complete blanket benefit of doubt out of their own naivete and need to believe in antiquated notions of good guys, bad guys, who’s who, etc.. WHEN IN DOUBT… RECORD. It MAY BE THE THING – and the ONLY thing that SAVES A LIFE – or a LIFE SENTENCE from being wrongly railroaded into existence for some poor bastard. Sort it out later… Or… Once you’ve “discovered” such a recording exists – AFTER SOMEONE RANG YOUR DOORBELL AND LEFT IT THERE FOR YOU… and THAT is HOW you came to be in possession of such recorded materials… But ALWAYS COPY IT TO A CREDIBLE AND COURAGEOUS SOURCE FIRST – before the original becomes too easily made to disappear.

    1. Good explanation of the law.

  53. Declan McManus

    As a transplanted NYer, I have been dealing with various individuals within the PA courts system. Most of that having to do with the goofy Magisterial District courts you have here in the Commonwealth (versus those found in the true “State” structure of government).
    As is well understood over many years, these very small courts, as well as the “Constables” which administer much of their functions out in the community – let’s not call them out and out “corrupt” as a matter of commonplace – let’s just acknowledge that there has been extensive reporting of cases where all kinds of bias and conflicts were let to exist. As well, the constables in particular had to see pretty rampant overhaul in their system in recent years over a matter of croneyism that became unavoidable to any longer leave unaddressed.
    That said…
    I have good cause to become increasingly convinced that my own “out-of-town-ness” has been the cause of receiving less than fair treatment more than once in this system. Mostly that comes in the form of the DJ court orders being a thing which the ordering court will, after the fact of issuing order, refuse to provide any instruction on what the enforceability is if such orders. So, having learned the hard way that I can have a tenant in a landlord/tenant DJ matter, lose the case, where I had to pay into the system just to have a hearing and get them out of my building – usually to the tune of about $400. And that is JUST for a document that is merely redundant on the already existing, duly entered contract.
    And what’s more is that I have seen the various personnel (court secretaries in particular over many years, but recently also the constable assigned to a case) those individuals will act on the behalf of and in the direct interests of those parties which were my legal adversary in the process. Again, the process I had to pay handsomely to access – while my opponent incurred no expense for such.
    I have been met with all manner of – very informally presented – obstruction and interference with my attempts to see that I have gotten my rights to process met before I have to hand over more personal resources to another deadbeat.
    As a NYer, I never had to worry about simply securing for the record – exactly who said what to whom – in order to later prove who knew what and when they knew it. So that when the event of those most annoying situations of “he said/she said” etc arose – I could offer the peace of mind that comes with objectivity of bearing witness one’s self to whomever was deciding matters for myself and my opponent.
    I’ve read the commonwealth’s statute, and it lies within this “expectation of privacy” thing… And then there is the matter of virtually all of the people I seek to archive the remarks of – being some form of government official – and discharging their official duties in any interactions they have with me… Leaving me with at least some hope the the superseding Federal view’s First Amendment approach to such recording of officials on official duty.
    So I ask…
    Can anyone speak to having any experience with presenting with recordings like those I’ve desired I could begin making… And been able to survive doing it. And maybe even see those recordings play the efficient role they so readily should be able to at seeing just outcomes to DJ court proceedings?

    Thanks for any input.

    Decco

    1. You can seek to bring in legally taken recordings as long as they meet the rules of evidence. It is so, that in the Magisterial District Courts, sometimes the rules of evidence are relaxed. But you do not have a superseding first amendment right to record people when you don’t have the right to record them. The first amendment has nothing to do with recording people. It has to do with speaking out.

      The question you will run into is whether you are legally creating the recording and whether the recording is admissible in court. The admissibility is based on a number of issues, including the relevance and probative value of the information. Frankly, if you are having this much trouble, I suggest you retain a local landlord/tenant lawyer to help you. That lawyer will be more familiar with the specific justices and what they are seeking in terms of proof. You can easily get yourself in trouble if you aren’t careful as far as recording people. Whatever you are seeking to accomplish, it isn’t worth the fines and/or prison.

      1. Declan McManus

        Umm… You’re the JD – not me – and you actually are unaware of the First Amendment application as a Federal matter for recording of any governmental official (most commonly peace and police officers of various types) while engaged in the discharge of their duties…?
        Of course the First Amendment to the Federal Constitution ( as well as the redundancy of same in most of the States’ Constitutions) addresses what we all think of as “protected speech”. But it also applies, most often for the purposes of the press, and under that phrasing in its language – as a basis for a citizen’s free ability to capture recordings of any official in the undertaking of their official duties. And where State and Commonwealth statutes prohibit recordings, the only twelve with State restrictions known as “two party consent” states – which Pennsyltucky indeed is one of… In the case of the aforementioned “officials”, the Federal application of the First Amendment in that context would be superseding. No?

        Taken from The Digital Media Law Project: ( a credible source well above any – including private attorneys in PA who can only say “just be safe and don’t do it at all” – where that kind of lay-down, defeatist attitude is precisely why such alleged authorities need to be recorded from time to time – if only to allow for the threat they might be held to a low standard of practice…)

        However, First Amendment considerations arise when you are openly recording the activities of police officers (or other public officials) carrying out their duties in public places. A number of U.S. Courts of Appeals have held that, in such circumstances, the First Amendment protects the right to record audio and video regardless of whether the police/officials consent. This constitutional right would override any state or federal laws that would otherwise prohibit such recording.
        (Citing several US District Courts as upholding the First Amendment application to recording US officials of various stripes)

        In any event…

        The probative value of the kind of recordings I’d be looking to use would be in no doubt sufficiently proven for their admissibility.
        The real question becomes one of… How much effort, cost, time and – yes – possibly criminal sanctions filed fast out of Pennsyltucky hillbilly reflexes – that would later be proven to have been filed wrongly and prematurely – purely out of this universal blanket idea of “no recording at all – ever” attitude that pervades the commonwealth…
        Boy – you folks could sure use a lesson from any of the other thirty-eight states which do permit as a matter of state laws, single party consent recordings to be made…
        After all – WHO is it that benefits under a two-party consent rule arrangement?
        The abuse of power should come as no surprise to anyone who knows human nature.
        The willingness to accept and tolerate that abuse always comes as a surprise to me when I see it in a people who seem to have all but given up any sense of what was supposed to be an American life and experience. Especially where that intersects with any of the many and ever multiplying powers of the state. Very often claiming to be acting under color of state law… But later shown to have been entirely out of all known and acceptable bounds.
        THAT is where recording becomes about the most patriotic act an average citizen can undertake the work and expense of… If not also the risk.

        1. I am not unaware of that right, as long as the person has a reasonable expectation of privacy, you do not have a right to record him. It doesn’t matter whether he is a government official. Out on the street, yes, you have the right to record a police officer, though sometimes you will still get arrested for it. That is another matter.

          As far as the other matters, I cannot really advise you here. I would suggest you sit down and speak with a lawyer to make sure you aren’t violating the law.

          1. Declan McManus

            And therein lies the rub for you americans (small “a” intentional)…
            In the land that is supposed to have no pope or king or mob rule of pure democracy – but the rule of law…
            There seems to be almost never any possibility of reliable information under law – that is – not without years of time and tens of thousands spent in private funds – to retroactively prove a right did indeed exist – back then, when events were unfolding… But of course never before the invent-it-on-the-fly fascists were able to wreak havoc in a citizen’s life.
            Oh well…
            Can’t really say that I have any grievance with the Al Quaedas and North Koreas of this world…
            Their enemy appears to be the same as mine.
            When a bloated by disease whore of a people has shown itself to be too addled with its own gluttony – although there be mercy in putting it down as any feeble creature – in this case… I think it a more honorable thing to let it suffer for as long as it has earned through generations of neglect and blind passivity and acceptance of all it knows to be wrong. The catholic church in america makes for a good starting example – but I digress…
            It’s a shame really – there was so much potential upon this land once.

          2. Well…ok then.

  54. Foday Kamara

    I was recently terminated from my job, but prior to my termination, my manager advised me to seek transfer to another department because our program director was on a mission to fire me by any means. Can I get in trouble if I had recorded those conversations with my manager?

    1. It depends. You might. If you want to use the recordings for anything, I would suggest you speak with an employment law attorney first.

  55. tina

    if my daughter recorded a conversation on her cell phone at our private house of an argument happening with some family members in which she knew that the outcome could be bad and has not given the conversation to anyone to use against anyone is this still considered illegal? This recorded conversation was discussed with a da that we had this info and he said he legally had to give the info to the other parties atty and now she is being told there will be an investigation and possible charges against her. How can a recording on private property with individuals who are arguing for all to hear be illegal especially when this information has not been used against anyone?

    1. The answer is yes, it can be illegal. The reason it can be illegal is because it is the act of recording that is illegal in and of itself. Nothing needs to be done with the recording to violate the wiretap act. The reason it is illegal on private property is because the people on that property have what is called a reasonable expectation of privacy. In other words, they have the right to assume they are not being recorded in the home. That is the entire purpose of the law. To protect people when they have a reason to expect that they will not be recorded.

      I would suggest you get your daughter a lawyer. This could be quite serious.

  56. Nom Deplume

    Very helpful thread. I found it while researching a question similar to Aubrey’s. That is, may a parent consent to the audiorecording of his or her own minor child if that child is unaware of the recording? I see no support in the statute but the statute does not address minors).

    1. Thank you. It is a good question. I would only have a guess as to an answer, and I never think guesses are a good idea since if someone decides to, unwisely, rely on my guess, s/he could get in trouble.

      1. James k lackey

        Mam do you see this stuff my wife is torment IMG me with , I c videos and it’s with her and other men…they appear Arly have been putting all of my break downs on a blog that looks like I put it up.. common see tell u that it’s not me …she has got people how following me every were I go the first night a big four wheel drive truck turned o some kid of light that blinded me …they have made me scared for my life I think they r going to kill me…this makes no sense to me…my wife and I use to drink and if she got mad she would try her best to talk me in to subside…she has turned out to b pure evil…..

        1. I am sorry to hear about what you are going through. I suggest you speak with a lawyer and/or the police.

  57. raj singh

    so if someone in your household is recording your conversation’s and video without you knowing .. can they go to jail…LONDON,ENGLAND

    1. I don’t know the law in England, so I cannot say.

      1. Courtney

        What about in America?

        1. In the United States, the law will vary state by state. Federal law is one party, which means you can record someone as long as you are part of the conversation. But that you still have to follow the law of the state in which you are located or in which the other parties are located.

  58. Aubrey

    Can you record a conversation with my minor child about what is going on in her home with her mother?

    1. Not in Pennsylvania, no.

  59. Christina G

    I have reason to believe that a guy I know is planning to do something to me and about eighteen others. Said person rides my bus and openly talks about it when he believes I am no listening. Would I be able to legally record the conversations he has about it?

    1. Call the cops, now.

  60. Lisa

    Middle school bus, where conversations are public-can you record another child’s abusive comments without notification? Thanks.

    1. Interesting question. The answer is I am not sure without performing research.

  61. Scott

    my wife’s ex has been using an IPhone app to record phone calls between their daughter and my wife. how do we go about proving he is doing this?

    1. Ask your lawyer to get a subpoena for the phone.

  62. Concerned Parent

    Thank you.

  63. Concerned Parent

    If a coach is speaking to players on a sideline, either during a game or during practice, on a public school field would that coach have a reasonable expectation of privacy? Many of the parents of the players are concerned with the way he speaks to the players. If the game is being recorded bia both video and audio, and the recording is conspicuous, in Pennsylvania, would that be in violation of the law?

    1. Tell him you are recording it. Then you should be fine.

  64. Jane

    Ok, sensitive subject… Some one I know is being accused of child abuse. The parent of that child keeps calling and trying to get the accused to say incriminating things. If the parent is recording, she never made it clear. Is that legal in PA? Both parties live in PA. Thanks for your input.

    1. Well, it would depend. The reason someone calls another and records him is irrelevant to the legality of the situation. It is going to be relevant, perhaps, to whether a DA feels he can get a conviction. Also, the question underlying what you are telling me is whether there are police involved and if it is some kind of sting. So let me give you a hypothetical.

      1. Person A is calling person B and recording him.
      2. Person A does not tell person B he is recording him.
      3. Person B has no lawful basis to be recording person A, i.e. there is no police or other law enforcement involvement that might make person A’s behavior legal.

      This scenario describes illegal behavior in Pennsylvania.

      Keep in mind, this is only a theoretical answer based on my hypothetical. Do not consider it to be legal advice, or act on it as such. There is no way for me to know all of the details surrounding your question, which means I can’t be comfortable answering it as stated. But I will say, if person B feels he is being recorded, he should report this to the police. Any proof should be given to the police.

  65. Daniel Amaro

    Preparing myself to take someone to a court because someone is loving recording others and our boss is not stopping her because she’s friend with the one sleeping with him on luxurious hotels. BIG DEAL!

    Seems and feels to me as if he’s permitting this behavior, but yet when someone’s laptop was robbed he stated he couldn’t check employees’ vehicles because it’s illegal unless he had a warrant. Ok, so what’s the difference with this case? Seems he chooses which incident to apply the law on.

    What is your input on this issue?

    1. I can’t really offer much input. Not enough information for me to know what is going on (and I don’t want you to provide more information because it will harm your rights to confidentiality.) Hopefully you have a good attorney to help you.

  66. Allysa

    My question is, what is expectation of privacy? I have a situation where I recently found out that someone has been secretly recording me when they come to my house. It’s my ex. She comes to get the kids and sits in front of my home and records me and my wife standing on our porch or inside our door. When we found out, we approached her and told her she doesn’t have our consent and to leave, to stop recording. She did stop recording, but only enough to get everyone riled up and then, when she had my wife so upset she was yelling things she probably shouldn’t have said, she began to record again and is trying to use this in court against us for custody. Can she do this? What can we do? We’re not sure how to approach this or if we had a reasonable expectation of privacy being that we were on our porch.

    1. What a terrible situation. Expectation of privacy really varies based on the factors, the state, etc. You really will need to check with your attorney. You might also want to check with the local police.

  67. Steve

    So here’s a question I’ve had for awhile about recording calls. I also live in Pennsylvania. If I call a customer service line with the expectation of a difficult interaction, and they begin the call with the “this call may be recorded for…” message (either automated or verbally stated by the representative), does that then grant me permission to record a copy of the call as well since both parties were notified? Or would each recorder need to provide notice prior to recording?

    1. I would suspect, though I am not certain, that if one side is recording the other can record as well. But you might want to say to the first person you speak, I understand you are recording this call, and I wanted you to know I am recording it as well. That is what I would do, personally. You might want to check with a lawyer who knows for certain.

  68. Very insightful article. I am getting ready to sue a debt collector for illegal recording.

    1. Thanks, Jeff. And good luck with your suit. People really do need to stop and think about what they are doing.

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